I saw complaints about this due to RHATO #13 vol.2. I don't think this comes out of no where or is step back in characterization. There's been some improvement in his relationships with them but have they ever been an actual family towards him since Jason returned ?
The quote that started this debate happens when Artemis and Jason discuss the fact that they only really have each other. Artemis asks about Batman and the other Robins being close to him.
Jason Todd: Not really. I screwed up anything I could have had with him a long time ago. Whatever is left--it's not family. Not for me. Not in the way that matters. RHATO #13 Vol. 2
Dissecting these lines by themselves really tells us a lot of information. Jason thinks he messed up his chance at family with Bruce "a long time ago." So not when he came back as Red Hood (though that put a lot of strain on it) but back when he was Robin. This goes back to his insecurity over whether or not he was actually seen as a son or a placeholder for Dick/Robin. Geoff Johns has brought this up in Justice League #19 when Jason dismisses his importance to Bruce and only sees Damian as the dead Robin that matters.
Lobdell has had Jason question what was a real family in a flashback of DITF as he thinks (at the time) that his adoptive family was "fake." Not because he didn't care for them but the adjustment problems they had made it hard to feel accepted. In DITF Batman choses the Joker/mission over Jason at one than once. He didn't go after his run away adopted son, they only team up because their missions are connected and he let's the kid he thinks is suicidal stay behind. He never attempts to get Jason to save the refugees instead when he felt that leaving him behind was the wrong choice.
Bruce also left Jason alone with Shelia and it was implied he was letting Jason decide his future. In other words Bruce didn't show Jason he'd fight for him and left him with the stranger that led Jason to his death. Bruce didn't prove Jason was wanted so he looked elsewhere. Promises and words mean little when action often proves otherwise.
In UTH the whole thing was about testing Bruce to see how much he cares about Jason. Bruce hesitates to help Jason take out assassins sent after him, which Jason calls him out on. Later on Jason gets the answer he knew he'd find as Bruce once again choses Joker/no kill rule over him. Since then every single time Bruce choses to meet Jason it's related to work. Not once has Bruce just taken Jason somewhere to only discuss normal life things. Does Bruce know how Jason is adjusting or if he has a life outside work?
The second volume of RHATO starts with Jason trying to earn Bruce trust and prove he's invaluable to him. During the first arc he admits he's not who Bruce wanted him to be and wants to be accepted for who he is. He doesn't think he's good at family stuff and isn't even sure how a normal family is supposed to function as he has no frame of reference. During a take with Black Mask it's ironically highlighted by BM that a regular family talks about their day and Jason brings up his own less than stellar home life.
Out of all the bat family only Tim has reached out to him and shown forgiveness. When the quote is said in RHATO #13 Vol. 2 Jason thinks Tim is dead which upset him so much he couldn't even go to the funeral. Damian doesn't like Jason or Tim and often treats them badly. The relationship with Dick is complex and will be shown more in the upcoming annual. Jason does list him with Roy as a friend he made before he died though. Alfred along with Bruce and Dick have all lied to him or kept secrets from him. They showed him that they don't trust him whether they meant to or not and manipulated his emotions.
That's not the behavior of a normal healthy family. He knows that much about families and the fact he's had close relationships with his friends that were/are more supporting. With Kori and Roy though the status of their friendships are currently unclear and now with his new team.
Right from the beginning of the first RHATO series we've seen Jason having a hard time believing he's part of the family. He's struggled with this and how sincerely the family cares about him for some time.
Jason Todd: Sometimes they are the crazed vigilantes pretending to love us like a son. -RHATO #6 Vol. 1
These are Jason's thoughts months before the first issue takes place. He believes Bruce pretended to care about him. While he did meet with Tim prior to this and start to have a better bond with him even Tim knows there are problems.
Tim Drake: You came back to life, Jason. After you were murdered. That was a lot to digest. I get it. Maybe we'll all get it someday. RHATO #8 Vol. 1
Tim understands Jason was and is still dealing with a lot of trauma. He also knows that no one else in the family really seems to be taking that into account. The only reason Jason helps out during the Night of the Owls is apparently because Tim asks. His gut reaction while assisting is still a wary feeling since he feels like it's a trap.
Jason Todd: Maybe being "home" again makes me...anxious? Confused? Ambivalent? Who could blame me? After all the times I made thing difficult for Batman--now suddenly I'm answering a call to arms from Alfred? If it wasn't for the ice castle here...I would think this was a setup to get me arrested or-- RHATO #9 Vol. 1
After he turns in Mr. Freeze Batgirl's first response is to threaten to toss Jason off the roof if he's doesn't explain himself quickly and then says this when he does:
Barbara Gordon: Don't think this absolves you of every other insane act you've ever committed, Red Hood. If I ever see you here in this city again, you're going to find yourself in a cell next to Mr. Freeze. RHATO #9 Vol.1
While Babs isn't part of the family Artemis and Jason discuss she represents his fears of returning home. She makes it clear he's not welcomed (despite the fact he was invited/asked to help), tells him he's not redeemed and threatens to imprison him if he even enters the city again for whatever reason. It's extremely hostile to say the least and reinforces the idea that he will never be accepted. Ironically she's far more excepting of the Talon she fought that same night. When Jason's girlfriend Isabel is attacked by Joker his first impulse after seeing she's taken care of is to warn the bat family.
Jason Todd: --I'll be back at the batcave in about six minutes Not that the lot of them ever lifted a finger for me--but I have to warn them about the Joker. RHATO #15 Vol. 1
Again he wants to help them despite not receiving the same consideration. Jason has been in danger in his own title without any of the family ever coming to his aid. During Tynion's run (if it's still canon) Jason had a hit on his head and went missing. None of them attempted to save him and none of this was a secret since Green Arrow was intentionally feed this information. When Jason does receive their help it's during a mission he's asked to be a part of. No one goes out of their way for him, even Tim who's been the most supportive. At least from what we've seen.
There's been some blaming on Jason for not allowing others in from Jason himself and Babs:
Barbara Gordon: Dammit, Jason--when are you ever going to ask for help? Red Hood/Arsenal #12
But I don't think his reluctance to open up/trust others is the problem. Jason has let others in as seen with the Outlaws. The problem isn't just with Jason's insecurities with his family but their less than stellar record at being there for him. Babs questions why he doesn't ask for help when she's been less than receptive to his help. If she wanted to she could have helped Jason in a number of ways yet she thinks he should only get it if he asks?
The crux of what Jason is saying to Artemis is he thinks he's responsible for ruining things beyond repair with Bruce. He doesn't think he'll ever have the sort of meaningful relationship he wants with any of them. Because whatever closeness they offer him isn't the same as it is between the others. And it's not the healthy and open bonds that Jason wants and needs. Think of it this way:
Jason struggled when he was Robin to be close to Bruce and Dick. There were problems there that never got resolved. Despite returning to the fold Jason is never treated like a son or brother in ways that matter. He doesn't get invited to the portrait painting, he doesn't go to the public functions the rest of them go to (*1) and their not truly part of his life anymore. None of them know the struggles he goes through. Now look at the Outlaws.
Kori and Roy got Jason to open up and start talking about himself in a honest way. He got open affection from them both verbally and physically (hugs, etc.) In turn he helped them out with with their problems. (*2) Artemis and Bizarro had a quicker bond with him despite Jason previously knowing Roy. (*3) By issue #13 Artemis and Bizarro already appear to be closer to him than most if not all of his family. He gets Artemis to talk to him about her past. They are comfortable enough to show their support through touch when she previously threatened him for holding her wrist.
Jason has hung out with them and they have been there for him more than the bat family has. That's what matters to him and it's what is lacking within the batfamily. When he's mocked by others how often does someone defend him? How often is he treated badly when he appears in other books? Nightwing apparently went out of it's way to act like Jason and him were suddenly the best of buds when that hasn't been the case.
Of course he doesn't feel close to the bat family and sees the Outlaws as the better bonds.
*1 Jason mentions being buried in secret without his death hitting the news. If that's true the usual excuse of Jason being legally dead doesn't apply. It means Bruce and the others either don't invite him (likely) or he intentionally stays away from the spotlight (also likely.) Since his picture made the newspaper I think the public knows who he is.
*2 Roy did keep secrets from Jason although Jason seemed to figure them out by himself. Roy also spied on Jason and it's unclear if Jason knew about it.
*3 Rebirth canon hasn't said if Jason met Kori earlier.
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I have read some of your posts and I really enjoyed them (especially the Willis/Black Mask theory),but I strongly disagree with this one for several reasons.
ReplyDelete1-His relationship with the batfamily was pretty awful in pre-52 and post UTRH with both sides treating the other terribly (I absolutely disliked the way Tim talked about Jason like he was less than him and Dick and unworthy of help), but things get so much better after the reboot where Jason was flat out called family by them.
2-Jason was always like a son to Bruce that even Dick was jealous of that (and Damian too). You have Bruce calling Jason his son many times and even cried for him, he stayed by his side and refused to leave when Jason got hurt by the joker post DOTF, he vouched for him so no one of JL hunt him down and many other moments.
3-"No one left a finger to help him" this false. When Jason was in trouble in Eternal, both Bruce and Barbara rushed to help him. When Dick and Tim realized that Jason might be a target too in BRE, they both quickly called to warn him and they rushed to his side when the connection was cut between them. Barbara was quick to offer her help to Jason when she find out about Roy in RH/A. Bruce called the mystic trinity and almost plead (and threatened one of them) to them to help Jason in Trinity. There are other examples too.
4-"no one was there for him in the lost memory arc" because the story require for them not to be there the same way Jason wasn't there to help when Dick was caught in FE. It wasn't because they don't care.
5-"The only call him for work!" They only call each other for work and hardly any of them spend time together outside of it (let's not give Tomasi's story more value than it deserves since it was in its own continuity). Look at how Bruce didn't bother himself (or anyone) to show up for Damian's birthday.
6-Jason has been called brother by both Dick and Tim. Damian also didn't deny when Maya refered to the Robins as his brothers and even started to call Jason by his name instead of Todd these days.
7-Alfred told Jason that he is as much his son as he is Bruce's son in JL.
8-Bruce was the one who reached out to Jason and tried to bring him back to the family in INC.
9-There's no way Bruce kept Jason's death a secret (and why the heck would he do that?) since it was a public knowledge and it would be a dumb plot by Lobdell to that.
10-People have overeating about the issue since it was absolutely great, but I can't blame some of them for being frustrated with Jason still being in denial over Batman thinking of him as family after everything they went through and it felt like Lobdell sacrificed part of Jason'sdevelopment just to show how deep his relationship with Bizarro which was completely unnecessary. His Outlaws will understand him better because they are like him and he spend more time with them, but that doesn't mean that you have to sacrifice his relationship with the batfamily to show how important his relationship with his teammates is.
1. I'm mostly talking about new 52 forward not pre-New 52 which had the relationships go down the tubes and had inconsistent writing for Jason in most appearances. Basically what I'm saying is that from Jason's POV their not as close as he thinks a family should be. Jason literally says in his narration "I've always sucked at family stuff."
ReplyDeleteAre they closer than pre-New 52? Of course but that doesn't mean he's as close as he wants to be or as close as other members are to each other.
2.I'm not debating this. Again this is from Jason's POV after he learns he has to prove himself to Bruce AGAIN once he learns Bruce doesn't completely trust him. His yearning for more is so apparent Black Mask calls him out on it.
3. I dumped Eternal but I'm under the impression they were all already working together. That's not the same thing as "Jason is out there on his own with a hit on his head, let's go out of our way to save him." Barbara still doesn't do anything though and she apparently won't unless be agrees which makes no sense. Roy's life was on the line and she's a hacker.
Jason has no idea about the Trinity bit yet which takes place long after he said that and it's iffy how/when this fits into canon with Circe being the New 52 version. I'm sure they could still make it work if they wanted it to but it's really confusing.
4. That arc made no sense to begin with and Tynion basically amounted it to Jason shrugging off Batman. I think the difference was FE took place in less time as Tynion has them say months passed by the time Jason was captured. It wasn't IMHO written well to begin with but the fact no one does anything was why it didn't work/make sense. The fact Ollie attempts to save them and they don't only made it worse. I personally try to ignore it but I know others don't.
5. I think they implied Dick spends free time with Damian since I recall them talking about a video game. Bruce also took Damian with him to spend Christmas with the Kents. I don't know about the rest but in general they should act more like a family.
6. Again not questioning that their family just agreeing with Jason's assertion that their not family in a way that matters to him. The Outlaws have the closeness he seems to crave. At this point it seems more apt to call them brothers-in-arms like Artemis did.
7.Not arguing that, see above.
8. Off panel and for work. They did it for Damian's benefit and only started to attempt to fix things between them after DOTF.
9. Lobdell literally wrote that in RHATO #9 VOL. 2 which is why I'm confused. From page 2 and 3:
"More like "Qurac--where I was murdered by the Joker." But there were no headlines. No evening newscasts. Just me in a pine box. Buried in secret."
10. I don't feel like it was as big of a deal as others are making it. Jason is insecure about his family regardless of the Outlaws or if Tomasi still has that death site visit story in canon. He's always wanted more than he's gotten from them and he needs more.
1- I know that you were talking about N52-Rebirth. I'm just pointing out that his relationship with the batfam is in better place after the reboot for Jason to be still in doubt about his position with them.
ReplyDelete3- Again, Barbara didn't do anything because Lobdell didn't want her to be involved and for Jason to do the saving. I take this moment as Lobdell showing that Jason still have hard time letting them in and accepting their help. If Jason was in big trouble and THEY KNOW ABOUT IT, no one will hesitate to help him.
He wasn't conscious for what's going, but it still a big example of someone lifting a finger to help him (and yes, Trinity is canon. We don't know where it fit exactly, but we are talking about comics here and we shouldn't over thinking this suff because it will never make sense how Bruce can be in Batman, ASB, Detective, JLA, JL..etc all at the same time).
4- Tynion's arc was pretty bad and regressed Jason's character. Tomasi didn't help either with him throwing all the development that was done for Jason and Bruce relationship out of the window just for his cheap drama.
It thankfully get ignored and recton out so it better not to think too much about them.
5- Not really. The third arc of Nightwing has Damian being kind of upest that he can't spend time with Dick like he used to be when they were Batman and Robin.
The Christmas story was non-canon and it was done just for fun.
6- The batfam isn't giving Jason what he needs (I'm not arguing with that), but he isn't getting less than the rest for him to feel excluded. It's just unfortunately how the writers have the batfam work.
8- Are you saying that Bruce did it for Damian or do you mean Morrison? Either way, it's wrong. Bruce did it FOR JASON and he standed his ground when get questioned about it.
Morrison probably had Jason in the story because he wanted to do another take on him after the previous one failed and he hardly used him for Damian.
9- I take it that his death wasn't that big deal in war-zone country and he was buried under the warehouse after the explosion without anyone realizing anything, not that it was kept secret in Gotham (that what I hope at least because Lobdell would be adding unnecessary tragedy just for cheap drama which what I dislike about Tomasi's writing).
10- My problem with it that it doesn't fit the current situation with Jason. Him feeling that about Bruce would make more sense at the beginning of his n52 series than now. His relationship with Bruce will always be complex with up and down moments, but him thinking that Bruce doesn't consider him a family after everything has passed the insecurity stage right to the stupidity stage which isn't doing Jason any favors.
I'm speaking as someone who has Jason as their favorite Robin and think that Lobdell is his best writer who done a great job with him since he got his hands on him. I'm just not liking this line and I feel that it regressed his character.
1. It's better than it was but not as good as it could be. Not nearly as good as the others have it. Jason worried about his family tricking him to throw him in jail in RHATO #9 vol.1 We know he's been in Arkham so they probably did throw him in.
ReplyDelete3. Whether it works in story doesn't matter if we're strictly talking about character actions and how that informs Jason of his place in the family. Barbara is basically there for the cameo in that case. Jason might as well of had Duella/the Iron Rule e-mail him the link since she wasn't hiding anything. She served no other function and honestly if this was Oracle, as she used to be written at least, she would have helped regardless.
Except it wasn't Jason's life on the line it was Roy's. His best friend who was in a situation that made Jason have flashbacks of his death. Sure they didn't know that but they should have done something since it went on so long. Jason didn't even know about it until she called. Except they haven't always known he was in trouble or been able to help. A number of times he would have died if his friends weren't there.
5. I remember the video game bit was mentioned after Damian died and Dick finally got a new game. Snyder had events which he claims he tried to put Jason and Cass in. Neither were allowed at the time. Tomasi did the most family bonding usually without Jason. I think he wrote the Christmas thing so it's probably canon for him.
6. That's debatable. Dick definitely doesn't treat Jason like he treats Tim and Damian. The RHATO Annual for example has Dick telling Artemis all this stuff about Jason...but barely says anything to Jason himself. Just that he's good at being a hero and a better big brother to Bizarro than Dick was to him. A good start but their issues still remain and Dick isn't really trying to resolve them yet.
Dick, who's pretty damn perceptive, doesn't realize (or ignores) the fact Jason is bothered at the campfire scene. He doesn't realize he kind of insulted Jason by mentioning amateurs and Jason instantly gets defensive. Artemis had to call him out on trying to leave and tell him not to let the past dictate the future. Because Dick also thought there was no way they could be closer after everything.
Bizarro and Artemis have more of an emotional openness with Jason. Dick isn't ready or willing to try that yet. Understandable but yes, Jason is still getting a lesser version of big brother Dick than Tim and Damian.
8. Given how Morrison wrote Jason and even Bruce at times I question that, especially how much Jason believes it. Regardless Jason seems to have his doubts until he hears Bruce told Superman he vouched for him. Then the helmet acid happened and they finally had to deal with their issues some.
9. Given that we've seen his grave I don't think it was at the warehouse. While this raises all sorts of questions with me this made me wonder why Bruce would do that. Maybe Bruce planned on bringing Jason back like he did with Damian. He either failed (or thought he did) or someone talked him out of it. In his grief he couldn't undo the public lie that Jason was alive studying aboard. I could see that.
Plus Gabby and Gunn don't seem shocked that he's alive. It even appears that his picture is in the paper the bullet holed suit man has on his board.
10. I don't think it's out of place. Bruce and Dick lied about Dick being dead. Dick had no problem getting them arrested in Robin War and left them to do his own thing. Alfred hid the fact Bruce was alive and Jason found out by accident.
Damian constantly treats him badly. Bruce still doesn't trust Jason like he trust the others. Even Damian who killed twice as Robin is granted more freedom than him.
Ditto for me but out of all the Robins Jason is still the black sheep of the family. Some writers use that to make him the butt of jokes. Characters snub him. Jason obviously wants more and if their not delivering then no, it's not how he sees a family.
3- It's actually matters because they are fictional characters who has no choice of their own except what the writer intended for them. Lobdell has her show up just as a cameo and didn't intended for her to do more nor it was meant to show Jason "his place" in the family like you seem to take it.
ReplyDeleteYes, his friends help him when he is in trouble because, you know, they SHARE a book with him and they are aware when he needs them. It would be a bad writing if they didn't and if the batfam not being there all the time for him when he needs them in his book is a proof that they don't care or see him as family, then I guess they all don't care about each other since how many times Dick, Tim, Damian, Barbara...etc were in trouble in their own books and no one from the family helped them.
5- It stil stated in CANON that they don't spend much time together which support the point I made that the batfam mostly meet for work related.
The Christmas story was written by Seeley, not Tomasi and did you read the whole thing? Because if you did, you would know that the whole book wasn't canon or intended to be taken seriously (tho, I would recommend to notwaste your waste your money because it isn't worth it).
6- The reason why Dick is better brother to Tim and Damian in the first place is because of his guilt for not being there for Jason.
Dick doesn't know how to talk to Jason and we already saw how painfully awkward they both were toward each other. Tho, Dick still come when Jason called him and not only that, but he also offered to call the titans if Jason as much as need it. The fact that he also went with Jason's antics and agreed to wear the silly costume spoke volumes about how much he cares about him.
And I already addressed this point in my previous post. Bizarro and Artemis spend way more time with him than anyone else so of course they will obviously understand him better since he actually open up to them.
8- Just because Morrison once write them in certain way doesn't mean that he incapable of changing his mind and write them in different way in his new story especially considering that his old version with him failed.
Jason is still has doubts even after learning that Bruce vouched for him which is the whole reason for this discussion in the first place.
3. If Lobdell wanted to focus on Jason he shouldn't have had Barbara call him up since her lack of action is glaring. We're talking about character actions not what the writer might have wanted. We don't know if editorial vetoed things for example or he decided to drop things. All we have is what's printed.
DeleteIn story we only have her calling up Jason then lament him not asking for help. She's a hacker and could have at the very least bought them time. She did nothing but call. If we're not meant to question it then it's weird since throughout Jason's books we've seen him constantly question his place. And since it's his friends' life on the line it stands to reason he wouldn't be thinking rationally.
His friends are more aware of Jason's needs than his family who constantly question his actions, struggle to relate to him and haven't made the same effort. Since Bizarro and Artemis have worked with Jason less than a month that's especially noteworthy.
I'm pretty sure they show up in each other's books more than in Jason's and are on better terms. Dick has at the very least mentioned some (notably Barbara, Alfred and Bruce) in warm terms.
5. Not with what Tomasi writes. Apparently Bruce only just started to get distant with Damian and previously spent far more time with him. Before flashpoint they all hung out together all the time. And being work related supports my point about it not being what Jason needs or considers a family.
Nope, I just heard about it and didn't have the funds to get it. Glad I didn't buy it then, thanks.
6. I know but he's still not trying as hard as he should given that guilt. Dick still tried to weasel his way out of it. Jason "needed" him specifically for his circus experience. The Titans don't have that and if he needed more help he could have at least asked Kori. It as mostly an excuse to not help and Artemis saw it as B.S.
I'm not arguing that Dick cares just that he still doesn't make the same efforts. The only brother Jason is on really good terms with is Tim because Tim went out of his way to show his support. Here Jason only asked to spend time with Dick which doesn't work out so well as Dick is mostly around Artemis.
And as I mentioned they haven't known him as long. Their still what he thinks of as family and what he wants from a family. The not only work together they actually communicate and show their support of each other.
8. Morrison is confusing for a number of reasons. For Morrison that might have been when Bruce and Jason made up. But RHATO and Justice League #19 still had Jason questioning his place after those events. Morrison's canon is generally vague in lot of titles with things they do and don't touch.
I meant doubts as in "Bruce wants to stop me" not that Jason ever stops doubting his place. The aftermath of DOTF is the first time their really forced to stay together long enough to start attempting to mend.
-That's on Lobdell, not on Barbara since she doesn't have a mind of her own. Blaming her is like blaming the JL for doing nothing in the event of war of jokes and riddle despite the fact thet it was stated in the story that the team was already formed when the war happened. Does this mean that the mighty heroes of dcu don't care about the lives of innocents? No, it only means that the writer decided not to use them so it's unfair to blame it on them.
DeleteYou take her words as blaming Jason, I take it (which I really believe it was what Lobdell intended) that she felt sadness that they still unable to have Jason accept their help.
His friends not only spend more time with him, they also live with him so it's not a big surprise that were able to understand him better in short time compared to his time with the batfamily.
They only show up when they got called (and they will literally do the same thing for Jason because not a single one of them will tell him to freak off if he ever decided to call for their help) and there were many moments when they were in big trouble and no one was there to help them because they didn't know (same with Jason). Dick talking with warmth about them because his writer decided to stop having him angsting over them since a lot of his fans are tired of it despite the fact that Barbara and Bruce were both pretty harsh with him in the first arc (Bruce literally told him to freak off and that he is getting no help form him when he learned that Dick acted on his own with the owls problem).
- You put so much value on Tomasi's stories despite the fact that he himself ignore what he writes sometimes. Rebirth made it quite clear that they don't and them spending time together in pre-flashpoint has nothing to do with current canon nor it any way prove your point that Jason is excluded from their non existent family bonding moments.
- Yes, he isn't trying hard enough because he feel the ship was already sailed. Also, Seeley made a point in his book on how Dick is drawn to people who needs him while he doesn't know how to deal with people who don't and since Jason doesn't need him, he has hard time knowing how to talk to him.
- Yes, it fit nowhere in the continuity (tho, Lobdell did acknowledge it). The point is that Bruce did reach out to Jason and tried to bring him in the family. Whether it worked or not, is another matter.
This entire debate is based on whether on not Jason should feel a certain way. Thoughout this entire debate we've been discussing character motivation so why stop now? With that in mind yes I put this entirely on Barbara. Damian stopped Wally's heart in story. That's on him just like her choosing not to act is on her. If we're just going to blame things on the writer for this I see no need to go on with any more of the discussion because that's what I thought this was about in the first place.
DeleteI take it as frustration and given the way she treated Jason I don't think it's justified.
Again, as I've stated I'm not questioning their roles as heroes or seeing Jason as family. This is HIS POV. I'm not saying they will tell him off.
Seeley might think so but I see it as another try like Morrison to leapfrog over important character development. I rather see Jason and Dick address their issues and grow over time than instantly act like buddies.
I give Super Sons a little credit just because the Kent work is solid. Honestly what I've loathed about his work his the way he writes the Waynes. I don't read everything but I know he's at least done family bonding. Sometimes I forget which ones he did like the Christmas issue. But you also bring up the same points over again even though I mentioned what I'm trying to say. I think we're both talking in circles.
So it's okay for Dick to feel this way but not Jason? You think Jason is "whiny" for, in a rare moment of openness, admitting feelings he mostly keeps to himself but it's okay for Dick because he's blind to the fact? If Seeley believes that then why wasn't Dick there for Jason when he first came back?
I think everyone thinks certain things are canon like Damian dying but it mostly isn't. Tried yes but they still have work to do since relationships need to be maintained.
Cont:
ReplyDelete9- I didn't mean that grave is under the warehouse (what kind of jerk this will make Bruce be to do this?), what I meant is that the moment after the explosion and before Batman got him out since Jason didn't die immediately which could possiply what Jason meant.
And I absolutely 100% sure that Lobdell completely forgot that Gabby should have been more surprised that he is alive so I make up the excuse that she hadn't hear the news of his death.
And when did we see Ma Gunn reaction to Jason being alive? She first mistakenly thought that he was the kid she met years ago and apologized for it. Jason might have revealed to her that he is Jason Todd off panel or not, we don't and there's is a big possibility that she isn't aware that he was taken by Bruce Wayne and died since she spent this whole years in jail and just recently was released.
I don't know if Lobdell is intending to have Jason's death be a secret and I hope he doesn't because it's completely unnecessary drama.
10- It's completely out of place because Jason isn't the only one who didn't know about Dick being alive nor he was the only one who wasn't told about Bruce. They all didn't know.
Damian treats everyone badly (even Dick) and Tim get the worst of it compared to Jason. Bruce literally doesn't trust anyone except himself and Alfred (just look at the way he keeps hiding important secrets from all of them including the JL). Bruce made it quite clear to Damian that he wouldn't accept him unless he stopped killing and there were many moments in BR that showed that he doesn't trust him, Jason actually in comparison got way more leeway from Bruce considering the questionable situations he put himself in and Bruce still welcomed him in the family even when Jason was still killing say a lot.
I would be ok with it if Lobdell just made it that Jason is having a hard time accepting them in his life instead of "hur durr they don't see me as family because I killed any chance!!" because there were many moments when they showd him that he is.
If he wasn't family, Dick wouldn't have called him to tell him that he is alive and even told him to his face that he is his brother. If he wasn't family, Bruce wouldn't have called him to tell him about Bane and told him to stay away to protect him. If he wasn't a family, Bruce wouldn't have called him in the upcoming Batman arc to tell him about his life-changing decision,...etc.
So, enough of this dumb insecurity and daddy issues because Jason needs to grow out of it.
9. I did wonder what you meant there, lol. I don't know how he could forget the Robin that died at Joker's hands when writing the Gabby scene. If Jason's death was reported on then it seems odd that people he knew didn't hear about it in Gotham. He was adopted by one of the most famous people in the city.
DeleteShe still recognized him and we don't know why she corrected herself. I don't think she's dumb enough not to know who he is since he's been living with her. Until we know the whole story with the letters we won't know but the fact she got upset about it is suspicious.
I don't see it as a drama since it keeps the drama of him dying from people. As far as they know nothing has changed. My problem with it and Jason being unmasked in general is that it should lead people to Bruce.
10. It's bad writing in general for the writers coming up with these plots but not knowing how to end them. But out of all of them Jason is the one that desperately wants and needs for healthy relationships. He has felt disconnected from "normal" people in canon already. The others didn't know but it's a build up of things that a "family" shouldn't do in Jason's opinion. That's not normal behavior and is the opposite of what he wants.
Damian still has Alfred, for a while he had Bruce and Dick whenever he needed them. Everyone came to bring him back. Tim and Dick grew up with normal families so the impact isn't the same for them.
Damian has at least shown Tim respect which is more than what Jason got. Tim is gone and he gets acknowledgement. Barbara got shot and she got Damian's empathy. Damian victim blames Jason and exploits his PTSD and everyone acts like it was a cute story.
The first Rebirth issue has Jason pointing out that Bruce would trust others with the mission. Bruce says why he doesn't want Jason going undercover. Only when Jason uses his own words again at him does Bruce give him a chance. He still sets down rules and threatens to "come for you" if Jason takes a life. Damian got a couple passes from the law but Jason will apparently go to jail if he kills for whatever reason. Even to save his own life.
Jason didn't operate in Bruce's city and Bruce couldn't exactly dictate orders then. He saw Jason was improving and didn't want to screw up. That doesn't mean much if he never says this stuff to Jason. Especially since Jason thought he was going to get arrested for awhile.
Both Jason and Dick don't see them as close. Jason doesn't deal with them often and it's obvious he wants more than a working relationships. That's not an option apparently hence "it's not family. Not for me. Not in the way that matters."
You mean when Dick told the family he was alive to give them a secret mission to help HIM? That's not that heartfelt. I would like to think Bruce would warn him of danger regardless of being family so I don't see that as an example of closeness. It still depends how that's written and given the way King writes Jason I have my doubts.
Sorry but in a lot of cases you don't just outgrow your trauma. Bruce sure hasn't. Jason has grown a lot but suggesting someone can snap out of a lifetime of neglect, abandonment issues, possible physical abuse and emotional abuse is unrealistic at best. Bruce and the others have trouble communicating, they use each other and that can be emotionally draining. Keep in mind he's also dealing with his PTSD issues too. All of that lingers.
- I guess it will depend on how Lobdell will handle it.
DeleteThere actually moments where it was clear Lobdell forget things in his run. The guy is just human after all and I don't find it hard to believe that he would.
Re-read the issue again, Gunn truly believe that she mistaken him for the kid she met before. She didn't know him at that moment and that doesn't make her dumb because she is an old woman who hasn't seen him in years (also, he only lived like for few days with her at most).
- He does and I understand why he feels this why, but no one is getting a healthy family relationship because they all a big mess even if the levels are different.
Damian literally treat Tim 10 times worse and he doesn't have more respect for him than he does anyone else. He even insulted his leadership while grudgingly paying his respects to A DEAD guy memory.
Damian is 10 years who completely stopped killing when they told to, are you seriously asking why they didn't throw a kid in jail? Also, Bruce never once attempted to throw Jason in jail and the one time when he was sent to ARKHAM was by Dick when Jason was pretty crazy. Still, it was stated they did it to protect him and they tried their best to avoid him being sent to blackgate.
What Jason feels and what actually is going on are usually two different things since he is unreliable narrator. If Bruce doesn't trust him enough, he wouldn't have put him in charge of Gotham's underworld like it was stated in tec nor he would have given him that much freedom.
Batman even literally talked to him at the end of the first arc of rebirth and has givin him his approval.
He gives them a mission (since King believe that every story should have action, he literally stated that in interview), but the doesn't erase the fact that he called his FAMILY and Jason was PART OF THIS FAMILY. Bruce called HIS FAMILY specifically to talk to them face to face and warn them about the danger. If he didn't consider Jason a family, he would have just left him a warning message and be done with it. How King is going to write Jason is irrelevant to the fact that Jason was called along with the rest of the FAMILY to be told about his decision. Seriously, why are you trying so hard to downplay every moment?
If he was able to move on and connect with his teammates, then he is capable enough to take the next step himself to connect with the batfam if he truly wanted instead of whining about how they don't see him as family.
I don't think Lobdell would forget old canon having Jason as legally dead.
DeleteHe's also remembered things to reuse them later on. The hiding under the table memory was way back from RHATO #0 vol. 1. I reread issues a lot so I know the scene well, it honestly doesn't read a certain way that's clear. You saw it that way. I was confused at first but I read it as her not wanting to admit she knew or being in denial about it.
Gunn had to have known him well because she knew his name and: 1) He was the kid that tackled her and had a hand in her arrest. 2) Bruce Wayne adopted him and 3) She had a wall full of letters addressed to Jason. Just seeing them was enough for her to ask herself what she did.
Damian was around Tim more but he still spoke more respectfully than he talks about Jason. It's not much more but it's still laced with respect.
I'm stating that it's not an equal footing and except for the brief Red Bird thing Damian doesn't get Robin taken away from him. Bruce doesn't punish Damian. There's no "don't step out of line or else" like there is for Jason.
I know that but it's Dick still sending him without trying to solve it in family. Can you imagine them doing that to anyone else? Morrison's Jason was off anyway and sending him to Arkham under Winick was cruel. We don't know why in THIS canon he was in Arkham. Not until he meets Harley I suspect.
This whole debate is about how Jason feels which is the family not being what wants in a family. Read the first arc again, Black Mask repeatedly brings up Jason's issues and one of them is being lonely. He says what Jason either can't admit or doesn't want to. BM can "fix" his own problems while Jason still has trouble moving on.
Jason can't deal with Tim's "death", he's trying to prove he's valuable to Batman since he knows he's not who Bruce wants him to be. That's not Jason being cool with his state in the family.
Tynion probably had Tim assume that since apparently Bruce originally got Jason to go undercover. Rumor is that the original RHATO had a darker Jason after what Duella did and he was bitter about Bruce making him be at odds with the family. Regardless it's what another character assumes and Jason isn't as trusted like Dick was as a spy.
It's still--in Jason's eyes--something he has to trend carefully or he'll be in trouble. In Artemis' arc he figures Batman will still come after him if he kills outside Gotham. It's still on his mind that he's on thin ice.
Is the arc where Bane took all of them out off panel? And that doesn't mean Jason has reason to believe it. He's heard them call him part of the family before. He denied it in JL #19, he's struggled with it throughout his books. And that still doesn't mean it's the sort of family he wants.
How does leaving a message mean you're family? Bruce called all of the JL to warn them of impending danger. Again that has NOTHING to do with how Jason feels. I'm not downplaying anything I'm seeing this entirely from JASON'S POV to explain why he thinks this. You're listing times they called each other family or teamed up when that's not what he's talking about.
He hasn't whined about it. His comment was just a reflection of why he values the Outlaws. Why are you trying so hard to ignore his traumas? Like I said above you don't just move on from that. It's like he told Superman, it's a work in progress and JASON is the one that tried to reconnect with Dick.
Sorry this got deleted when I was trying to publish it but was still in e-mail to copy here. I put it in anon to make it less confusing.
ReplyDeleteFrom Kazumi J:
I gotta say, Dick's relationship with Jason has never been as bad during Jason's Robin days as some in fandom (especially fanfics) are willing to portray. Distant, but not outright 'violent' and bitter so to speak.
But for all that, it makes me gritt my teeth how Jason is all buddy buddy with Barbara, all friendly and willing to give a shoulder and help and etc. Idk about pre New-52, but New 52 onwards, Gordon is a class A b****!
The first words out of her mouth (literally, not even a 'nice to meet you' first) was 'You'll NEVER be Dick Grayson'... drop dead, Barbara.
And then during Night of the Owls, that was... well, you're welcome for defeating a Talon, don't worry, next time I WON'T answe Red Robin's call for help.
And in HR/A 12, Barbara has NO right to complain about Jason not asking for help when no one (she) ever said 'if you need...'. So how in the world would Jason even know that help would be avaiable if he asked for it?
That happens but I've also seen the opposite of people thinking Dick was always there for Jason and Jason was the problem. Dick made a small attempt but yeah their was a lot of resentment there.
DeleteAgreed. I dropped Eternal but no one really writes her right since the relaunch. Not that I've seen. That scene just pissed me off because I can't see why Jason holds her in such high regard when she acted like more of a brat than Damian.
Barbara, in this canon at least, has only added to Jason's insecurity. Didn't she also tell him that he's kidding himself if he thinks Batman trusts him?
Yeah she really had no call to threaten him or look down on his attempt to help. She also shown more support redeeming the Talon she fought.
I thought that when I read it. Barbara treats him badly then wonders why he doesn't ask her for help? This is why all of them need help with their communication. Jason sees you mean what you say through actions.
But in general Eternal is something I'm only too happy to ignore. It made me groan every time I've seen her since.
As for how she used to treat Jason there was very little interaction. But there was an arc in Gotham Knights where she hung out with him. She was FAR more mature and he called her out on being rusty. Barbara was IMHO just better in old canon.
I'm so sorry, this happened again. I thought I hit the publish button in my e-mail.
ReplyDeleteFrom Kazumi J:
... really? People blame the 12 (ish) year old for being 'bratty'? Really? But they're a-okay with Damian decapitating someone in his first day in the cave?
Also, not wanting to rant, but Damian had foul language and killed (a lot more than Jason btw) since he was introduced and I just don't get how so many people keep insisting that he is somehow 'better' person than Jason and tha Jason is a 'bad influence'... little kid was already doing everything that made Jason 'bad' long before the two met.
That all said. Dick and Jason (during the later Robin years) simply didn't coexist with each other long enough to like or dislike the other. The resentment is mostly on Bruce... (and Barbara I guess *rolls eyes*)... and that was it.
I didn't know Barbara very well before N-52 so... yeah the character is ruined for me. 'The Killing Joke' (animated movie) did NOT help matters.
Yeah there does seem to be an imbalance both in and out of comics for Damian's behaviour versus Jason's. Personally I would have gotten Damian therapy, we know Jason at least had that though it's because he was put in Arkham.
DeleteBruce punished Jason for less and seems unwilling to attempt to do anything to rein Damian in.
There were stories when they acted like Dick knew Jason better since writers used him as a mouth piece for why they thought Jason was bad. I think Lobdell has hinted they at least interacted more since Dick tried to train Jason. Given the things you mentioned Jason had a lot of factors against him.
That's sadly how I feel too. She was awesome before but I don't think they know what they want from the character. Yes, that was awful.